Well, I am not going to complain about anything you said or the way you choose to say it. It's your blog, you can say whatever you want. If other people don't like it, oh well.
I do understand how you feel about the whole situation with John/Holly and Dawn. I also have people who I think are my friends, but honestly, I am not sure if we are as close as I think sometimes. When I am with them, I feel like I am imposing. Dave actually feels this way when he is hanging out with you sometimes. I feel that way when I'm with Lexy at your house and John and Holly are there. I guess I just assumed Lexy and Holly are closer friends, and I am imposing on them. It's definitely something we all feel at one point or another.
Also, people do care about what you write and are interested in your thoughts. Okay, well I can't speak for everyone, but I do care and I am interested. Whenever you write something and you seem pretty worked up about it, I always ask Dave if you seemed alright, since he sees you much more than I do.
Haha, I also check your page like five times a day to see if you have said anything new! :)
Zanthina
· 2 years ago
I'm going to presume you are talking about the night before we left to see your family in St. Louis for Christmas. I did talk to Dawn. Some of it was about you. However, I did NOT say anything that I would be ashamed to tell you to your face. In fact, I think I have, at one point or another, said everything to you that I said to Dawn that night. She was worried about going over to John's house because she thought it would make you mad. I told her it would be fine if she went, because we were going to bed anyway because we had to get up early, and there should be no expectation that she should stay away from John and Holly just because we couldn't go. We then talked about how she feels bad about spending time with John/Holly because of the way you feel about it sometimes. I told her that she should not have to adjust her schedule of what she wants to do in order to save someone's feelings if she wasn't doing anything wrong. She isn't doing anything wrong, and I told her that if you had concerns that you would bring them to her. Until then she could go about doing whatever she wants because she's not breaking any rules or doing anything that would be reasonably assumed to hurt anyone.
We talked about some of the concerns you had told me about the friendship between her and John. Those were no secret, you and her had spoken previously about them. She said those were valid concerns to have and she wished they would go away but cannot do anything to make them go away. I defended your position and reiterated to her that the concerns you have about the past are very real and very justified. She agreed.
I didn't mention this conversation to you the next day because you and I have talked about this situation before. Nothing that was said was news. I have nothing to hide from you.
Drink when you feel like drinking and stop giving a flying fuck about what other people want to do. You want a drink when you're sitting around with some friends? Have one. Other people might join you, they might not. John will go drinking with you if you ask to go out one night. So will I for that matter. I know bars can be annoying sometimes, but if you want to drink it's a fine place to go and hang out with others who also want to drink.
It seems like, from your perspective, that you think John doesn't really like you or want to hang out with you. That you and him don't really have a close relationship, that maybe he just hangs out with you because he feels bad or something. Here's something you might now know: to a lot of other people in our circle, the relationship between you and John is untouchable. Like a two person club that isn't letting in any more members. So while you may go nuts about the things he doesn't talk about with you or the time he doesn't spend with you, don't discount what you guys have between you.
I know it makes you feel funny when you hear from Dawn about how she talked to John and Holly about this and that or what they did together. I know you can't help how you feel, but it's a good sign that she talks about these things. It means she's not afraid of you being upset about her time with John and Holly. She isn't hiding anything or editing anything for fear of how you might react. This likely means she trusts you and the relationship she has with you enough to be honest with you regarding what she knows is a sensitive situation. Just a different way to look at things if you choose.
In the spirit of openness and honesty, the following is the copy/paste transcript of a conversation I had with Natasha after I read your entry and while I was writing this comment. It has not been edited.
[15:16] Zanzeldafan: oh this is just a bunch of crap [15:23] polka_dot_chic: what is? [15:23] polka_dot_chic: (sorry was making food) [15:24] Zanzeldafan: I'm reading and commenting on ye olde Tony's website [15:24] polka_dot_chic: ooh yeah [15:24] Zanzeldafan: by the way, just so you know, this conversation will be pasted into my reply back to him. [15:25] polka_dot_chic: oh ok [15:25] Zanzeldafan: because it wouldn't be right to claim that I don't go behind his back with anything that I wouldnt' say to his face and then run to you and do just that. [15:25] polka_dot_chic: understandable. [15:26] Zanzeldafan: by the way, holly and I aren't close [15:27] Zanzeldafan: not in any way that should make you feel left out [15:27] polka_dot_chic: I assumed you were. I don't know why though. [15:27] Zanzeldafan: but nobody can really help how they feel. [15:27] polka_dot_chic: I guess because tony and john are good friends? [15:27] Zanzeldafan: that's why I am sad about tony, because I know he feels the way he feels and can't really do anything about it except work through it. [15:28] Zanzeldafan: yeah, that's reasonable I guess. Because the guys are good friends then you could reasonably assume that holly and I are as well. [15:28] polka_dot_chic: Yeah, I think that is definitely where it comes from. [15:29] Zanzeldafan: we don't really hang out except when the guys are around, on ocassion we might go to wal mart or something [15:29] Zanzeldafan: her and I have opposite schedules [15:31] polka_dot_chic: I really feel bad for Tony [15:31] polka_dot_chic: There seems to be alot bothering him about his friendship with John. Not only this time, but you know, other things he has written about in the past. [15:32] Zanzeldafan: yeah, sure does [15:32] Zanzeldafan: I know he really likes john, and they seem to be vere important to one another. [15:32] Zanzeldafan: I'm not sure what happens in a situation like this when a relationship causes more pain than benefit [15:33] Zanzeldafan: or maybe it hasn't gotten to that point yet, I'm not in Tony's head so I don't know. [15:34] polka_dot_chic: Yeah.. well, I don't know how John feels, but Tony definitely seems to suffer more. [15:34] polka_dot_chic: I don't know, I'm sure John cares about their friendship just as much as Tony does. [15:34] polka_dot_chic: Eh, what a confusing situation. [15:34] Zanzeldafan: I think the popular opinion is that John doesn't really feel at all. But that's probably not true. [15:35] Zanzeldafan: He referred to me as "commonly overlooked". [15:35] Zanzeldafan: I...don't know what to think about that. [15:36] Zanzeldafan: Sure, I'm lonely sometimes... [15:36] polka_dot_chic: Well, I don't think he meant anything bad by it. It sounded like he thinks people don't invite you out, or over, and they forget about you. That's how I took it anywya. [15:36] Zanzeldafan: but I always thought that if I wanted attention from someone that I could get ahold of them. I think that's what he meant as well. [15:37] Zanzeldafan: I think that if I were close enough to someone maybe I would feel jealous or sad if they didn't invite me places or tell me stuff. [15:37] Zanzeldafan: but the only person that holds that place really is Tony. [15:37] Zanzeldafan: so, I guess I'm commonly overlooked by my own choices and actions. [15:38] polka_dot_chic: I feel that way about myself too. [15:38] polka_dot_chic: I'm totally guilty of not trying to be better friends with the people I know. It's not just you and Tony, really, it's pretty much everyone. [15:38] Zanzeldafan: same here [15:39] polka_dot_chic: For some reason, I just don't push to get closer. It can be very uncomfortable sometimes, and I think that sometimes you and I almost feel obligated to become close friends because Dave and Tony spend alot of time together. I don't know, it's weird sometimes. [15:39] Zanzeldafan: when I was younger, I think maybe I needed the approval and gratification that comes from friendships more than I do now. I mean, I still need people and I still like people. But somewhere along the way I stopped needing others to build my self esteem. [15:40] Zanzeldafan: I understand where you are coming from there. [15:40] Zanzeldafan: and I'm not saying that everyone who has a close friendship has low self-esteem. I am happy for people who have those kinds of relationships. [15:41] Zanzeldafan: I think that those things have to happen mosty by themselves, without any pushing from people. [15:42] polka_dot_chic: I agree. It also doesn't make it any easier when we all have lives with jobs and school etc. [15:42] Zanzeldafan: that's true [15:43] Zanzeldafan: I think that could be something that gets to Tony as well. He doesn't think he has "enough" in his life. He thinks he should be doing more. [15:43] Zanzeldafan: I think he'll get there eventually, things happen when they are supposed to most of the time. I think he's in a time in his life where he is forced to pretty much wait for things to happen for him because he's doing all he can do. [15:44] Zanzeldafan: and he feels like he should be doing more. And because he has time on his hands, he starts to focus on his sadness and worries about the opinions of others. [15:45] Zanzeldafan: I think one of the reasons I'm pretty happy most of the time is I have no time to give a half a shit about what people are doing and why they aren't including me. [15:45] polka_dot_chic: I understand how he probably feels like he should be doing more. I have been really trying to get ahead of myself lately, trying to get myself going in my career field and doing something other than dead end jobs and just school. [15:46] polka_dot_chic: It came back and bit me in the ass though. Heh, I got suspended from CMSU and had to appeal it to return to school on Monday. :\ [15:46] Zanzeldafan: when I'm ready and free to do something, I pick up the phone and find someone. I wish this perfect life would fall right into his hands and make everything right. But right now, he just has to wait. [15:46] Zanzeldafan: oops [15:46] Zanzeldafan: I'm assuming they let you back in? [15:47] polka_dot_chic: Well they didn't want to but I pretty much begged... to come back though, I had to let them pick all of my classes for me, I have to meet with an advisor once a month, and they will check on me through my professors once a month. [15:48] Zanzeldafan: oh my [15:48] Zanzeldafan: like being 5 again eh? [15:48] polka_dot_chic: Yeah, pretty much being babysat all this semester. [15:49] polka_dot_chic: I'm sorry but I really h ave to go to the library to return some books before they charge my account. I should be back in just a few minutes though if you are still going to be here. [15:50] polka_dot_chic: brb [15:53] Zanzeldafan: ok :)
Zanthina
· 2 years ago
I forgot to mention in my comment that you have every right to feel the way you feel and to express it any way you choose. I dont' think any of the things you have said are wrong. I apologize for being defensive in my previous comment, I felt attacked but I am responsible for my own feelings and realize you likely didn't intend to attack me at all. I wish there were something I could do to help. I realize there isn't anything to be done. I'm glad you write about your life and your feelings. I like reading about it and will listen to you anytime you would like or need to talk. I will even shut up if you want me to.
andreya
· 2 years ago
I love you Tony. I'm not ignoring this, but I've decided to avoid any strange mis interpretations I'm going to have this conversation with you face to face when we aren't surrounded by company. But remember, I loves you. And Lexy's a cup of tea.
All Comments
I do understand how you feel about the whole situation with John/Holly and Dawn. I also have people who I think are my friends, but honestly, I am not sure if we are as close as I think sometimes. When I am with them, I feel like I am imposing. Dave actually feels this way when he is hanging out with you sometimes. I feel that way when I'm with Lexy at your house and John and Holly are there. I guess I just assumed Lexy and Holly are closer friends, and I am imposing on them. It's definitely something we all feel at one point or another.
Also, people do care about what you write and are interested in your thoughts. Okay, well I can't speak for everyone, but I do care and I am interested. Whenever you write something and you seem pretty worked up about it, I always ask Dave if you seemed alright, since he sees you much more than I do.
Haha, I also check your page like five times a day to see if you have said anything new! :)
We talked about some of the concerns you had told me about the friendship between her and John. Those were no secret, you and her had spoken previously about them. She said those were valid concerns to have and she wished they would go away but cannot do anything to make them go away. I defended your position and reiterated to her that the concerns you have about the past are very real and very justified. She agreed.
I didn't mention this conversation to you the next day because you and I have talked about this situation before. Nothing that was said was news. I have nothing to hide from you.
Drink when you feel like drinking and stop giving a flying fuck about what other people want to do. You want a drink when you're sitting around with some friends? Have one. Other people might join you, they might not. John will go drinking with you if you ask to go out one night. So will I for that matter. I know bars can be annoying sometimes, but if you want to drink it's a fine place to go and hang out with others who also want to drink.
It seems like, from your perspective, that you think John doesn't really like you or want to hang out with you. That you and him don't really have a close relationship, that maybe he just hangs out with you because he feels bad or something. Here's something you might now know: to a lot of other people in our circle, the relationship between you and John is untouchable. Like a two person club that isn't letting in any more members. So while you may go nuts about the things he doesn't talk about with you or the time he doesn't spend with you, don't discount what you guys have between you.
I know it makes you feel funny when you hear from Dawn about how she talked to John and Holly about this and that or what they did together. I know you can't help how you feel, but it's a good sign that she talks about these things. It means she's not afraid of you being upset about her time with John and Holly. She isn't hiding anything or editing anything for fear of how you might react. This likely means she trusts you and the relationship she has with you enough to be honest with you regarding what she knows is a sensitive situation. Just a different way to look at things if you choose.
In the spirit of openness and honesty, the following is the copy/paste transcript of a conversation I had with Natasha after I read your entry and while I was writing this comment. It has not been edited.
[15:16] Zanzeldafan: oh this is just a bunch of crap
[15:23] polka_dot_chic: what is?
[15:23] polka_dot_chic: (sorry was making food)
[15:24] Zanzeldafan: I'm reading and commenting on ye olde Tony's website
[15:24] polka_dot_chic: ooh yeah
[15:24] Zanzeldafan: by the way, just so you know, this conversation will be pasted into my reply back to him.
[15:25] polka_dot_chic: oh ok
[15:25] Zanzeldafan: because it wouldn't be right to claim that I don't go behind his back with anything that I wouldnt' say to his face and then run to you and do just that.
[15:25] polka_dot_chic: understandable.
[15:26] Zanzeldafan: by the way, holly and I aren't close
[15:27] Zanzeldafan: not in any way that should make you feel left out
[15:27] polka_dot_chic: I assumed you were. I don't know why though.
[15:27] Zanzeldafan: but nobody can really help how they feel.
[15:27] polka_dot_chic: I guess because tony and john are good friends?
[15:27] Zanzeldafan: that's why I am sad about tony, because I know he feels the way he feels and can't really do anything about it except work through it.
[15:28] Zanzeldafan: yeah, that's reasonable I guess. Because the guys are good friends then you could reasonably assume that holly and I are as well.
[15:28] polka_dot_chic: Yeah, I think that is definitely where it comes from.
[15:29] Zanzeldafan: we don't really hang out except when the guys are around, on ocassion we might go to wal mart or something
[15:29] Zanzeldafan: her and I have opposite schedules
[15:31] polka_dot_chic: I really feel bad for Tony
[15:31] polka_dot_chic: There seems to be alot bothering him about his friendship with John. Not only this time, but you know, other things he has written about in the past.
[15:32] Zanzeldafan: yeah, sure does
[15:32] Zanzeldafan: I know he really likes john, and they seem to be vere important to one another.
[15:32] Zanzeldafan: I'm not sure what happens in a situation like this when a relationship causes more pain than benefit
[15:33] Zanzeldafan: or maybe it hasn't gotten to that point yet, I'm not in Tony's head so I don't know.
[15:34] polka_dot_chic: Yeah.. well, I don't know how John feels, but Tony definitely seems to suffer more.
[15:34] polka_dot_chic: I don't know, I'm sure John cares about their friendship just as much as Tony does.
[15:34] polka_dot_chic: Eh, what a confusing situation.
[15:34] Zanzeldafan: I think the popular opinion is that John doesn't really feel at all. But that's probably not true.
[15:35] Zanzeldafan: He referred to me as "commonly overlooked".
[15:35] Zanzeldafan: I...don't know what to think about that.
[15:36] Zanzeldafan: Sure, I'm lonely sometimes...
[15:36] polka_dot_chic: Well, I don't think he meant anything bad by it. It sounded like he thinks people don't invite you out, or over, and they forget about you. That's how I took it anywya.
[15:36] Zanzeldafan: but I always thought that if I wanted attention from someone that I could get ahold of them. I think that's what he meant as well.
[15:37] Zanzeldafan: I think that if I were close enough to someone maybe I would feel jealous or sad if they didn't invite me places or tell me stuff.
[15:37] Zanzeldafan: but the only person that holds that place really is Tony.
[15:37] Zanzeldafan: so, I guess I'm commonly overlooked by my own choices and actions.
[15:38] polka_dot_chic: I feel that way about myself too.
[15:38] polka_dot_chic: I'm totally guilty of not trying to be better friends with the people I know. It's not just you and Tony, really, it's pretty much everyone.
[15:38] Zanzeldafan: same here
[15:39] polka_dot_chic: For some reason, I just don't push to get closer. It can be very uncomfortable sometimes, and I think that sometimes you and I almost feel obligated to become close friends because Dave and Tony spend alot of time together. I don't know, it's weird sometimes.
[15:39] Zanzeldafan: when I was younger, I think maybe I needed the approval and gratification that comes from friendships more than I do now. I mean, I still need people and I still like people. But somewhere along the way I stopped needing others to build my self esteem.
[15:40] Zanzeldafan: I understand where you are coming from there.
[15:40] Zanzeldafan: and I'm not saying that everyone who has a close friendship has low self-esteem. I am happy for people who have those kinds of relationships.
[15:41] Zanzeldafan: I think that those things have to happen mosty by themselves, without any pushing from people.
[15:42] polka_dot_chic: I agree. It also doesn't make it any easier when we all have lives with jobs and school etc.
[15:42] Zanzeldafan: that's true
[15:43] Zanzeldafan: I think that could be something that gets to Tony as well. He doesn't think he has "enough" in his life. He thinks he should be doing more.
[15:43] Zanzeldafan: I think he'll get there eventually, things happen when they are supposed to most of the time. I think he's in a time in his life where he is forced to pretty much wait for things to happen for him because he's doing all he can do.
[15:44] Zanzeldafan: and he feels like he should be doing more. And because he has time on his hands, he starts to focus on his sadness and worries about the opinions of others.
[15:45] Zanzeldafan: I think one of the reasons I'm pretty happy most of the time is I have no time to give a half a shit about what people are doing and why they aren't including me.
[15:45] polka_dot_chic: I understand how he probably feels like he should be doing more. I have been really trying to get ahead of myself lately, trying to get myself going in my career field and doing something other than dead end jobs and just school.
[15:46] polka_dot_chic: It came back and bit me in the ass though. Heh, I got suspended from CMSU and had to appeal it to return to school on Monday. :\
[15:46] Zanzeldafan: when I'm ready and free to do something, I pick up the phone and find someone. I wish this perfect life would fall right into his hands and make everything right. But right now, he just has to wait.
[15:46] Zanzeldafan: oops
[15:46] Zanzeldafan: I'm assuming they let you back in?
[15:47] polka_dot_chic: Well they didn't want to but I pretty much begged... to come back though, I had to let them pick all of my classes for me, I have to meet with an advisor once a month, and they will check on me through my professors once a month.
[15:48] Zanzeldafan: oh my
[15:48] Zanzeldafan: like being 5 again eh?
[15:48] polka_dot_chic: Yeah, pretty much being babysat all this semester.
[15:49] polka_dot_chic: I'm sorry but I really h ave to go to the library to return some books before they charge my account. I should be back in just a few minutes though if you are still going to be here.
[15:50] polka_dot_chic: brb
[15:53] Zanzeldafan: ok :)